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Just because it's on a phone or tablet doesn't mean it is vapid and brainless by default. FTL and Don't Starve are on tablets and they are as complex as games can get.
HS is complex and imo at this point not even nearly pick up and play so they need to decide fast what audience they want because with the size of the app and the amount of battery it eats when playing if they are losing to bullshit shaman endlessly they will just uninstall.
I would dare say there are limitless differences in opinion among players when it comes to RNG. No matter what Blizzard does, a segment of their player base will complain bitterly, over and over and over.
I wish he would get a new headset with a microphone. I hate that echo. Turns me off his stream, every time. Wouldn't a small room be worse for echo?
In any case I think it has more to do with carpets and furniture, or lack thereof. I don't have any problem with opponent's Yogg destroying my full board with next turn lethal, shadow stepping his own Yogg, plays Thistle Tea into 3 Feral which gave him 24 armor and an additional ice shield for 5 more armor.
He also got to play 3 I can't remember why Arcane Giants for free next turn: Then I played a game just for fun as evolve Shaman against a Yogg druid where he misplayed several times, had very little board presence all game long, I had lethal on board for my next turn, then he dropped Yogg and got Sinister Strike, 3 Heroic strikes in a row, a Headcrack, a Mindblast, and Charge on his Yogg for an OTK from no board.
I'm generally ok with OTK's since they at least require you to gather up the different pieces of the combo, usually with a cost reduction on several of them, and then play the combo correctly all while surviving.
Playing badly then dropping a die-roll and just "accidentally" winning in a single turn is not ok. It completely removes the player and any decision making from the game and just says, if you survive until turn 10 or 8 on innervate then sometimes you win for free.
I'm on the other side. It's silly and 'fun'. But not satisfying in the way I want it. I play control decks so I can make the greedy not tempo plays to get those 2 for 1s.
Slowly out valuing your opponent is the fun. Then yoga comes in and tips the table. The thing is you pretty much have to include yogg anyway.
Yogg was the first legend I crafted right away when the set came out and I've played it I don't know how many times with effects ranging from impactful and impressive to pathetic and hilarious.
Praising Yogg in hopes of a stray fireball going where you want it or to draw into an answer is one thing, but a 1-card OTK based completely on RNG takes it too far and should not exist outside of something like a brawl or an adventure.
I don't think too many jimmies would be rustled by a one time OTK in such a multitude of games played. There's no other 10 drop in the game that has such a huge impact.
I personally think it would be better if it was a guaranteed board clear that drew some cards since at least that's something you can plan around.
Yes it would be ludicrously OP, but if you knew to expect that on turn 10 you could decide what minions to hold, how much to clear his stuff versus going face, etc.
As it is, there's no way to plan around the chance of an instant win. Got an Ice Block? Flare and then 3 pyroblasts. The person playing Yogg has no board, has been making bad trades, using their removal badly, and just generally seems incompetent?
Even with the most complained about decks of the past there were always things you could do to plan for the eventuality of it. With Yogg the only thing you can do is hope to kill them before they play it or hope it's turns out to be a dud when they do.
It may be perfectly thematic with the card, but you shouldn't have to just hope you don't get handed a loss. It defeats the purpose of a competitive game.
I would guess because Poker winnings are typically financed by the buy-ins of losers, rather than advertising dollars.
Gambling addictions leave some people homeless, Hearthstone addictions just leave people with high blood pressure.
I dont think hearthstone was ever designed to be complicated. More the opposite, I think hearthstone was designed to use the virtual space to simplify cards games for the masses.
What your describing is depth. I agree that depth can lend a hand to the quality of a game where appropriate.
I wounder if the developers think it is appropriate. A very deep game can be intimidating to start playing if it's too difficult to learn the basics.
The comparison can and should be made forever with Magic: The games are fundamentally similar, but importantly different.
Magic is a more complex, deeper game because there's more stuff in it. There's just more to do, you have more options.
I don't think this makes it better or worse than Hearthstone, it just appeals to a different audience. Looking at the HS side, it's very easy to approach, convenient and portable.
Because of these inherent differences HS grew very quickly. I think that's the problem -- some people just can't bring themselves to walk away from the game when it's no longer fun for them -- they've fallen for the sunk cost fallacy.
There is nothing wrong with the random Yogg and Portal effects. The problem is it belongs IN a separate game mode like Tavern Brawl.
Who would like to play Ladder using this week's Tavern Brawl? Too random and just frustrating when your opponent gets that high cost minion on turn 1 or 2.
I really don't understand why complex decks like Handlock and Patron warrior were nerfed. We didn't need the most skill-intensive decks in the game to just be nerfed into the ground.
Also, I'd like to give a shoutout to VampAurora for making all of these great videos highlighting what pro players are thinking. Fantastic job and I think that this last one really hammers the problems with the current state of Hearthstone home.
Keep up the great work! Their reason for nerfing Flurry actually made sense. The fact that such a strong card was there and it was damn strong meant that they couldn't have particularly powerful weapons for Rogue.
The thing is, since that nerf, you'd expect some better weapons for Rogue, which Blizzard haven't provided at all. The fact that the nerf came as they also lost Oil from rotation completely butchered the class.
Those were two of its most important cards, thrown out completely. Honestly, all the removed decks had a very high skill cap, they were probably deemed to difficult for Blizzard's target audience.
I think the idea is that they wanted Blade Flurry to be in line with Shadowflame. The problem is that sacrificing a minion and sacrificing a weapon are very, very different things.
Really liking the class and that base for decks. I always feel like I've misplayed hard somewhere, even when I win, which is actually a cool feeling as it drives me to gain more familiarity with the deck.
There is some chance that the sets we currently have were all conceived of pre-standard. Most big card companies plan pretty far ahead and in many ways the Standard job feels pretty hacked together.
Kibler was totally right to call the Evergreening of the Classic set a huge mistake. I mean, cards like Deadly Fork which I actually like, though it's "correctly" balanced: But their way of nerfing it didn't make any sense.
You either remove face damage, or double its mana cost. There was absolutely no reason to do BOTH, leaving the card in an unplayably bad state.
Also, they opened up all that design space, but for what purpose? What a fucking joke. I believe they've essentially gone back on the "weapon design space" argument and have flat out said that they don't want rogue to have good aoe.
Every class should be playing minions at every mana slot, doing nothing early game then coming back with a huge flurry is "unfun".
It's not actually unfun, it just forces there to be some kind of decision making from both sides - how much to extend, how long to hold it.
Blizzard want the game to be far simpler than that, in exactly the manner you're saying. Making it just a flashy dice game means that new players have more of a chance to get into it and spend money.
Tell me why having to use 1xhero power, 2x deadly poison and 1xblade furry to deal 5 damage to board and opponent is considered overpowered in any sense.
They hit flurry way too hard. It'd still be used if it was 2 mana. The class is suffering now as a result.
I'm not even sure that that was a case of nerfing for Patron Warrior, as much as them seeing a bad design pan out. Patron shows up from time to time still.
I think they called it correctly by identifying Warsong as the bottleneck there. I miss playing the card though, I like it's VO a lot.
They didn't nerf patron, they killed it. The Patron decks that came afterwards were barely combo decks, instead featured more synergistic mid-range elements, and were both weaker and easier to play.
Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure anybody who actually played the deck could think of better nerfs, but there are many ways they could have balanced the deck better without actually killing one of the most skill intensive deck's to ever be successful in hearthstone.
Did you account for every 3 attack or less minion that warrior might use? Nerfing warsong was right move because design space. Charge is inheritly less interactive and very integral for aggro decks.
The same thing could be said for tundra rhino limiting design space for beasts. Because if it's cheap cost, comboing becomes relatively easy, and that's what made the text broken.
I can agree with most of what your saying, that doesn't take into account that Warsong buffed anything. Design spaces for 'Beasts' vs 'Everything' are vastly different scopes.
Following your line of thought, you'd want some kind of Qualifier for balancing, like "Grant your Horde minions charge".
That would be much easier to balance for, the worst of the current tools would be like Cairne I believe. But if it was a 5-mana card, that wouldn't be a single turn combo without setup anyways.
Also it would have nerfed the Patron Deck as they are of a different faction irrc —so you don't get Patron controlling the board and a Frothing finisher, just the second one there.
On a more "fun" note, making that " All Horde minions have charge" similar to murlocs would be quite funny, and I think?
This would also include a built in hose if she became a staple card as others could basically tech in second-pick Horde-relevant cards.
Plus the thought of 'Chargin Vol'jin' out of priest makes me giggle. Sure, but Warsong can buff so many minions. Honestly, I think the existence of Tundra Rhino suppresses Blizzard from printing better beast minions.
I'll probably preferred something like "your charge minion can't go below 1 health" or something similar. You still keep the soul of the card with the support to charge minion without render the card useless.
I really wish they would make more efforts for patron-like things to occur. It was a great deck, and needed to be nerfed some.
Not burnt to the ground and forgotten so they could conveniently kill two birds with one stone and quell the masses about the long-animation issues that patron exposed.
Patron was bad, but it required a ton of practice and skill to play. Shaman requires none of that. Patron warrior got nerfed because you could pull insane amounts of burst damage with empty board.
Yeah, comparing Handlock to Patron is not the way to go. Patron was much, much more oppressive than Handlock.
Handlock felt fair, and 'counterable'. All these "I don't get why patron was nerfed" posts are fucking hilarious.
This sub has no memory. Or you know, the people who don't agree with the patron nerf like me are not the same people who called for the nerf back then?
And you could do more damage from hand when your opponent played minions so there really was no way to protect yourself or put a clock on the patron player.
Worgen Warrior can only do one of those things. Remember this thread from last year? Shit like that is why patron was nerfed. Like others have said before, the problem with patron was that although it took a high amount of skill to play optimally, you didn't need to play even close to optimally to win.
Definitely deserved to be nerfed. People are excited about Totem Golem, but I don't think it's going to help because it turns turn 3 into either hero power or creeper.
Tuskar Totemic also has significant RNG, but at least that one IS somewhat 'fun', and not just 'roll a dice for numbers'.
Win rates with the deck where not good even at legend level. It was not even the best performing tournament deck. Of course this could be because there was a lot of tech against it but it was not the most popular deck either.
Because the deck could do excess of 50 damage from a completely empty board and there was nothing your opponent could do about it.
I'm not saying that there was not a problem with Patron Warrior, but that I think more counterplay should have been introduced rather than just destroying one of the highest skillcap decks in the game.
For instance, a card could have been introduced that protects your hero from taking more than 10 dmg in 1 turn. Inidividual cards to counter specific things tend to not work.
That taunt depending on deathrattles, eater of secrets, that sorta thing, aren't known for being effective. What about a tech card that gave you the option to discover 1 of 3 different niche effects then?
I feel like Bolf was their half-assed attempt at something like that, but clearly that didn't work out so well. My problem with Patron though didn't just necessarily lie in the burst damage: And with the lack of truly effective board clear at that point in the meta, there weren't a lot of realistic ways to come back from that sort of position.
The other decks you mentioned require a ton of setup and don't punish the opponent for trying to develop their own minions I guess you could argue Freeze Mage does that, but not to the extent that Patron did in that you don't have to worry about sticking your stuff to the board -and- clearing enemy minions.
And that's why Handlock was considered the one main counter to Patron at the time. The fact that Freeze and Oil could handle a Patron Warrior going ham on turn 5 wasn't much help when in most cases those two decks had to worry about running out of damage due to Armorsmith shenanigans.
The 50 damage burst was because of Emperor Thaurissan and nothing else. It's pretty simple - combo decks become broken when they have 5 extra mana to use.
Emperor allowed Combo Druid and Freeze Mage to pull similar bullshit wins out of their ass. The difference was that they would do it without a 50 attack minion, so people didn't complain for a nerf.
Thaurissan is what made everything possible. Same with Frothing OTKs. I don't know why the community was so fixated on Warsong and Frothing.
Patron was entirely playable and really strong though after the nerf, which was indeed needed, unless you weren't playing back then. It was incredibly dominant.
If Handlock wasn't going to be playable, it'd be because of things like Shaman having a plethora of burn to go lethal through taunt minions easily, not the absence of these two cards.
Handlock was a thing before either of those cards existed. Hell, coming from an ex-Handlock main, Darkbomb is not even very important.
But Patron was a very oppressive deck at the higher ranks, where people could pilot it well. It was also making the tournament meta very stale and boring, where people only brought Patron and Patron counters to tournaments.
I bought ONiK, saw that there are still no decks that are competitive that I also seem to enjoy playing due to all the other bullshit on the ladder you have to play around, and now occasionally I'll play a few rounds with a friend but that's about it.
Yeah, I've thrown in the towel myself. Just not worth it, not fun at all anymore. I'd much rather deal with combo druid and piloted shredder neutral than the bull shit rng generated from tuskar and yogg.
More so, Tuskar to be honest. This interview is so bad. System sounds in the background Facebook Edit2: If you really have to type while the interviewee speaks, at least mute the microphone.
I'm actually fine with a hyper-aggro deck like shaman existing in a complete metagame. In it's current state though, aggro shaman just outvalues the control decks and there is relatively little punish for misplays with how easy it is to flood the board with powerful minions and threaten the ridiculous burst damage from hand.
I think my biggest frustration with Hearthstone though is how incredibly stale the game feels even after an expansion. They release a very small amount of cards, with even fewer being playable.
You end up with an "evolving from the old" metagame rather than introducing new archetypes, and the ones that might pop up beast druid feel incredibly forced and pre-built, not innovative.
It's cute every once in a while to lose a game on ladder to a blowout Yogg, it's definitely not okay for the World Championships to be decided by aggro shaman and RNGesus.
Honestly I think that if they doubled the amount of cards per expansion the game would probably be too expensive.
They would need to make them twice easier to have. I buy 50 packs every expansions, and every adventures and I'm just able to have every single useful card each expansion.
If they double the amount of cards without making twice easier to have cards. And I believe they would lost a great amount of consumers.
Hearthstone in general is too expensive, especially if you don't get what you need from packs. Costs could be adjusted to reflect the influx of new cards.
I think modifications to the current dust system might be more appropriate. It obviously can't be inline with other TCGs because there is no trading system - everything is self contained and it's difficult to get value from the cards you don't want which they are quite a few of.
I just don't think 30 cards is enough to appropriately change a metagame - maybe that's not the intent of adventures, but I feel that is a design flaw that encourages a stale metagame.
So it would require twice as much work and more to account for the issues we currently face for the same cost? Way less profitable for them. If the next adventure takes 20 of the 30 cards addressing the shaman problem, you're just removing shaman - not necessarily doing anything interesting to the metagame.
I just don't think 30 cards gives enough designer breathing room, especially across 9 classes. I won't argue profitability.
Obviously doing less work and telling people to buy it to remain competitive is going to be the best model, whether or not it's best for the game and playerbase is another matter.
I'm definitely not suggesting printing an additional Tuskarrs. Blizzard also seems to heavily favor minion combat at this point, and I think efficient aggro decks will always have an innate advantage on ladder.
There's much to be desired from their design team in terms of interesting mechanics - I don't have much faith at this point that anything will change.
Magic doesn't even really have much as far as bans go, and I can't recall anything being banned for being "too random", it's usually "too synergistic" or "too strong of an engine".
Hearthstone by design just has less "levers and knobs" to quote MaRo , so what can you do to really balance a card like Yogg-Sathoth?
The knobs we've got to turn are "cost; stats; effect". Compare, I don't believe that Anybody would be getting to the Finals, let alone top 8 with a card like Scrambleverse which is super fun btw XD in their deck.
It's too expensive, which at a point is just not a thing in HS. I just don't think YS a card that was designed well for Hearthstone's format and espoused design principles.
One way to balance Yogg which has been suggested and might work is to make it stop casting spells when it dies. It's also pretty logical and doesn't increase complexity, and might help.
I've seen that suggestion! But honestly I think a better route would be where Blizzard would actually make a truly casual environment.
In such a case, you can keep the original wacko-insanity version of the card, and not have it negatively warping the competitive side of the game.
Hell, you could even have both versions, the card just acts "as it should" depending on the play mode. And when I say "casual" mode I don't mean the wild or the existing ones: MTG also has an entirely different level of interactivity, you could actually do something about Scrambleverse being played.
I think that's what we're seeing here - a team still learning how to develop a card game. IMO, I agree that there's no way to balance a card like Yogg that would make it acceptable at a competitive level.
Chaotic randomness have no place in a TCG with next to no opponent's turn interactivity. They hit 10, play the card, and sometimes you just lose.
I really think the randomness of the game is an excuse for a lack of interesting mechanics, and hopefully that changes for the future.
That's definitely an area HS has the rest of the games beat on. I mean, I don't think Hearthstone ever intended to be a complex card game that showcases a huge skill ceiling for the competitive scene.
The competitive scene came into to an existing game's philosophy and sort of said "This is all wrong, do it better.
That being said, complexity is not the one stop shop for better games. MtG has insanely complex decks but also has more straightforward decks and those straightforward decks are often times still very competitive.
So just adding in more room for complex decks won't distinguish the good players from the casual players because those less complex decks will still defeat complex decks.
And if they don't, that becomes a problem because then the game is just about finding the most complex thing you can and doing it well.
Once that happens, the player-base is immediately ostracized. Personally I feel bad for people who have invested so much into making a living out of competitive hearthstone because I don't see it ever being something where a more skilled played reliably wins over the others.
Blizzard isn't going to scrap their design philosophy of "fun first" just to make the pro scene better. I am not saying there shouldn't be esports for them, they for sure should, but wait for it to happen by itself, develop the game in your own best interest while keeping esports in your mind on longterm, and if the game has potential, esports will grow by itself.
They were all ex csgo pros tbf. It's like saying Hearthstone had a competitive scene before it came out because all the sc2 pros like Trump and Artosis were playing a ton.
I know but still its a difference between Trump and Artosis in beta and whoever playing in hearthstone and having tournaments for money before the game is even out in overwatch.
I get the feeling that the Devs didn't generate the esports scene willingly. Much more likely that board meetings and stream statistics strong-armed them into it.
Do you ever hear Eric Dodds or Ben Brode talking about crap like skill caps? Not really, their vision is still that lunchbreak game with lots of laughs and shenanigans.
I do remember Blizzard saying several times that Hearthstone would not be an e-sport before and right after release. The problem with the latest Blizzard games is the duplicity of the developers.
They make them so much easier than the games they're cloning. Put down a turret in Overwatch and you get kills.
You suck in Hots, the 4 other teammates will carry your failures. You can win any game vs anyone in HS because randomness.
They are all designed to reward mediocrity because they make money by player retention first. And the end result is simple to see: When you design a free to play game that has making money prioritized over game play, you will never be as competitive as the "pure e-sports" games.
I think Blizzard knew this going in, but has completely failed adapting to the player feedback. Something Blizzard is rather famous for by now.
As long as they make money they are happy. Any public event with traction is just good PR. How, specifically, did they do that? It's one thing to respond to community interest in competitions, it's another thing to actively push for a competitive scene to exist by fiat.
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